What's a parent to do??

[frawniemae]

Okay folks…I have a problem. Her name is Sarah and she is my (almost) 19 year old daughter.

Sarah graduated high school with honors. She received her Gold Award in Girl Scouts. She had opportunity to attend 3 leadership camps. She has worked part time since she was 16. She has always expressed the desire to become a teacher. She received several one-time scholarships totalling $3875 and 3 scholarships from Lamar University totaling $12000, one of which is a 4 year $10000 scholarship that in order to keep she would have to maintain a GPA of 3.2 or better, another is $500 per semester for being in the Honors Program (and maintaining her GPA as above) and the other a $500 per semester scholarship that I’m not sure where it came from but I never look a gift horse in the mouth!

Sounds good, huh??
I thought so, too. Really! We have some monies put away to cover college but it’s never quite enough, is it? These scholarships were very much an answer to prayer.

So, what’s the problem, you may be asking…

Sarah purposely skipped class enough to fail her Spring Literature courses. ON PURPOSE!!! She knew she would lose scholarships if her GPA went down. SHE KNEW IT!!!

I am embarrassed to the point that I cannot talk to anyone other than my husband, and you all, about it. Too many in my family have worked 2, 3, maybe even 4 jobs at a time to pay for college and here Sarah is, sitting on her ass, enjoying the weather because “it’s just too pretty to be in a classroom”!!!

She has never done anything so , I don’t know, DUMB, maybe? in her life. She found out that college is not like high school. The profs get paid whether you show up and pass or not. Most may not even care if you pass. I tried to impress this on her way back but like most teenagers, she didn’t pay heed to her parents’. I don't think she listened to much of anything I've said.

She figured she didn’t need to go to college any more. She would get a job in a day care and that way she could teach kids without having to get her degree. Yeah, maybe so…but not knowing state regulations, I’m not sure how accurate her thinking is on that. We told her that she would not be covered on our medical insurance unless she was a full time college student (their rules not ours), her car insurance would also go up because of the same reason. We provided her with a car since she received her license but didn’t have her pay insurance until a few months back. She was blowing her money coming and going so I figured she’d pay me for the insurance and I would put it back (unkown to her) for the future. She balked but it was pay up or walk. It was time to be tough.

We have told her that she doesn’t have to go to college, that it would be a mistake if she didn’t, but the choice is hers to make. IF she goes back, she will be responsible for the part of the tuition that the lost scholarship would have covered. The rest will come out of her college fund and we’d cover the books.

If she chooses to not go back to college, she will pay us a fair amount for room and board ( this money will be put away for when she matures because if I don’t save it for her, it will be blown). Her medical will be up to her. Her car insurance will be up to her. She will purchase, at fair market value, the car, that up to now, has cost her nothing. She will have house rules that she will follow. She will be a contributing part of our household as long as she is under our roof.

I have to enforce ‘tough love” on her. Something I thought I would be able to avoid. But here we are…. And it sucks.

And the worse thing about it? She doesn’t seem to feel and regret about any of this.

Thanks for letting me rant.:curse: :curse: I still need to go hit something, though. :mad:

[pocket]

I know how discouraged you are, frawniemae. Real life hasn't smacked Sarah upside the head, yet. For some reason, even smart kids will mess up, thinking they've found a shortcut. She needs to check to find out how much a job in daycare would pay. I'm thinking she'll be shocked at what she'll have left after paying for the things she'll be responsible for. Maybe that will be a wake-up call.

[colby42]

I don't know if it will help, but have her look at the pay of day care workers vs. teachers. Day care workers around here start at about 6.50 an hour and MAY work up to about 10 dollars an hour or about 17,000 a year. As a teacher you will start at about 29,00 a year and can work up to 55,000.

The other thing to consider, though it is hard, is there something else going on. Alcohol and Drugs have taken away more than 1 college student, including some very smart ones. Hopefully this is not the case, but it is one thing I would look at with such a seemingly drastic change.

[Gabby]

I don't know if it will help, but have her look at the pay of day care workers vs. teachers. Day care workers around here start at about 6.50 an hour and MAY work up to about 10 dollars an hour or about 17,000 a year. As a teacher you will start at about 29,00 a year and can work up to 55,000.

This is a good point (and I'm going off topic for a minute). $29,000 a year?! Our starting salary is $42,500 and I'm not embarrassed to admit that there are people (not me) in our district making six figures teaching. It's not uncommon to be making $75,000 mid-career.

Anyway -- I think you're handling it VERY well. A big dose of real life should help. She's a smart girl. Let her figure out how she's going to live on $7.50 an hour.

Big hugs to you! :hug2: I'm so sorry that you have to go through this.

[TigerLily]

Let me tell you - my sister got a reality shock this past year when after being in school since 5yrs old, getting her BComm Honours and 2 law degrees she found herself unable to get an articling position and is now looking for ANY job. Well, she's still thinking any job that isn't beneath her "training" but that kinda changed a bit. She is a good kid, but she's never had to deal with reality as a grown up, even though she turned 27 in March. We were working at the same job for awhile and one day on the way home she says "If this is what work is like, I don't want to do it anymore." And I'm just sitting there goin..."Uh, yeah, this is the way it is. Toughen up kid." Anyway, I hope she learns from this. I took a year or so off after high school and worked until I knew what I wanted to do and it was very helpful for me.

[Virgo6]

Frawnie you sure have had a rough time these past few months with your kids and I feel your heartache. Raising children is the toughest job in the world.
How you are handling your daughter's problem is probably the only solution.
I can really understand your position and agree totally. She needs to realize that she is giving up a very special gift that other students would love to have.
Yes, she worked hard to get those scholarships and to not follow through to keep them is foolish. But its her life and she has to fall on her face to understand that having that attitude and losing those scholarships might just be one of the biggest mistakes she ever made. You have to be her soft place to fall when the crap its the fan, but all those rules you are setting up for her is the only way she will learn a hard lesson. Its so frustrating and sad to watch your children screw up big time. I know cause I have experienced it and still am with my youngest. I keep thinking "when will she ever learn?" Hugs to you friend and be strong.

[Slitter]

Is the scholarship absolutely and irrevocably lost or is there some way she could still salvage it? It would be worth looking into and (IMO) worth begging for another chance - at least on her part. It beats the hell out of just giving up and that sounds like exactly what she is doing.

Maybe it was because I was the third kid or maybe it was because my mother was a teacher but I knew about the self-discipline and responsibility required. Of course, maybe I was just more motivated because I signed the papers on my student loan and I knew I was going to have to pay that back one day.

It might be a good idea if you sat down with her (before she makes any decision) and help her make out a budget. You would determine the things like rent, car payments, insurance, etc. but she would have to decide the entertainment, clothing and all that stuff. That might give her a clearer picture of what she's setting herself up for if she decides to quit school. She would see the sorts of choices she'd have to make before she was in the position of having to make them.

I expect you could also find some studies on the relative earning power of a college degree vs only a high school diploma. Redo the budget starting with the college degree amount of income with the same expenses and let her see the difference. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the school district had some budgeting tools that you could use.

If you wanted to be really wicked, you could "let slip" that the money she paid in rent would go into her brother's college fund. Who cares if it is actually your plan? That would so appall her she might go back to school just to keep it from happening! ;)

[Virgo6]

Do you ever watch the repeats of the Cosby Show? If so there was an espisode regarding their son Theo and his decision about college and joining the work force. The father did exactly what Slitter mentioned. He gave his son fake board game money and then kept taking bills away from him as he spoke about the money the kid would need for rent, car insurance, food, etc. until Theo was left with nothing. It was an excellent show.

[frawniemae]

Raising children is the toughest job in the world.

I have often said this myself!

Thanks for all of y'all's input. I have always tried to know who, what, when and where with both of my kids but somehow this year has just gotten away from me. I know I can't just give up on either of them. I also know that my problems with my kids are small compared to some others' of us. I honestly do not think that Sarah is experimenting with drugs. She smells of cigarettes sometimes but not pot. She has probably had a drink or two ( not many college kids haven't) but I don't see the signs of alcohol abuse. (Trust me when I say I would recognize them.) She chooses to hang with people that for the most part I (so far) trust. There are a few I wish she would stop being around only because they do have some personal problems that Sarah sometimes seems to absorb and take on as her own characteristics. She can't "fix" them so she joins them.

In her Fall semester she made a D in Philosophy. That brought her GPA down low enough that she was put on probation as far as her scholarships went. I have not received anything official yet telling us that she lost it. Grades haven't been turned in yet so I'm not surprised. It is a remote possibility that they will cut her some slack but after that first letter, I doubt it.

We've about decided that if she does go back next Fall, she will be responsible for all of the college costs for that semester. That would mean that most of her regular savings would be spent. Once she proves that she is going to do what we all know she is capable of doing in the class, we will start helping her again. The college trust fund that my parents started for her when she was born will not be wasted, if there is anything I can do to keep that from happening. If she got her hands on it, it would be gone **snap** just like that.

Financial responsibility is what she needs to learn now.

She worked at a day care last summer so she knows the pay she'd get there starting out. To teach there she would have to work up to it and I'm not sure how much she'd get then.
Today she says she is going on and registering for the Fall. We'll see what tomorrow brings...

Slitter, I have tried time and time again to get her to sit down to a "budget discussion". But she rolls her eyes at me and so I've just let her be. She has her own back account and uses her debit card all the time. She's had to pay a couple of insuffiecient charges so she knows that's expensive.

One of her biggest faults is wanting to place the blame for whatever it is on anyone else but herself. She even tried that with me on this thing, saying she hadn't had a childhood and she was just trying to be a kid for a change. I stopped her short on that one. At 19, you're pretty much considered an adult. It's a bit late to start goofing off.

Sometimes she is just so full of s*** that she can't see straight. this time it's going to really cost her.

We'll just have to wait and see what she's going to do now. The ball is in her court.

[WOODTURNER]

You are doing the best things possible. PLEASE HANG IN THERE.

So many parents think they can "love" their kids into doing the "right" thing.
Tough Love is the only thing that works. I'd suggest not even telling her you are keeping the $$ for her future.

At this point, she is a drain on you, your family, and (sorry) the world. It will take a while for her to learn that you guys are her best friends and the only ones who really have her best interests at heart.

No friend, college, employer, or even lover will ever, ever, have her best interests at heart as much as you do. They will always put themselves first.

She has to make herself valuable. At present, she has no social, economic, educational, or personal value to anyone or anything but her parents.

I do so admire what you're doing. Joanna

[Gabby]

I know it would be tough to get her to read it -- but Nickeled and Dimed is a great book about trying to live on low-income jobs (I think Oprah did an episode with the author). Very eye-opening.

:hug2:

You're an amazing mom, frawnie!

[Fuel]

Frawnie, that is a tough spot to be in. I don't have anything to say but hang in there. :hug2:

[colby42]

Gabby,

42,500 to start!! I need to move across the Lake. In reality though Im sure cost of living factors in. I am in my 11th year with my Masters and make 41,00 fromm teaching (I also coach 3 sports so that helps) If you get any business and Social studies openings give me a holler, maybe my wife and i can try Michigan!!

[TigerLily]

I'm sorry but...what part of her childhood did she miss that was so bad? Honestly, people hear these phrases but don't stop to think about what it really means. At about 10 you need to start taking real responsibility for yourself and learning what it takes to be an adult if you haven't already. This is when I started baby sitting and doing my own laundry. So, she has never just hung out with friends for a night? Never played in a play ground? There are so many things that make a childhood that until we look back we don't see what we really did have. I guess this is a mini rant for me because I used to feel this way (kinda). And then I came to the point where it was "ok, that was then, this is NOW and what am i doing NOW to make my life better for tomorrow." what's gone is done. You can't go back and change it. You can only make things better for today and tomorrow. I know someone who truly did lose their childhood at an early age. Both her parents were alcoholics and when her mother had twins when she was 8, she and her 6yr old sister took care of them because their parents couldn't/wouldn't. Dreamz on Survivor was homeless as a child. Talk about never having a real childhood. I believe I have lost all patience with people who feel sorry for themselved because after years of doing the same I realized how truly futile looking to the past and feeling sorry that your life was so "hard" is. Life is what we make of it. Past, present and future.

[frawniemae]

You're an amazing mom, frawnie!

:crying: Thanks so much for that...I really needed to hear it. I just keep waiting for the day when one or both of my kids realize that evey decision I have ever made was in trying to do what I thought was best for them.

Again I thank all of you for all of your encouraging words and very good advice. Please, if you pray keep her in your prayers. She just does not know what she wants to do and I know she is scared.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,...." Romans 8:28

This has become my mantra. Things will work out and this is, hopefully, what it takes to get her head straight on money issues. She hasn't talked much to me in the last few days so I don't know what she's get in her head right now.

And I, too, wondered just what it is that she missed in her childhood. She has no clue what she's talking about. This is one of those instances where she has taken on a characteristic of one of her friends. There are a couple that really did have a crappy homelife and probably still do. Her reply was that she was always too busy with Girl Scouts or Choir to do anything fun.

What? :huh: Excuse me??? :curse: She was the one that wanted to stay in GS. She was the one who is always singing and saying how much it means to her. Through GS she was able to travel and experience things that most kids don't have the chance to do.

I don't know what she thinks she missed. Like I said in an earlier post: she is full of s***.

I just would like to know who my daughter is any more. The main problem there is I'm not sure even she knows.

[LeeLee]

Frawniemae,

I truely feel for you. One of the things I find the absolute most difficult is to let my kids learn dissapointment & consequences. It is very difficult for me not to always be there to pick up the pieces. You forgot your report that had to be turned in today or you lose a grade - okay, I'll take off from work and drive the 25 mile round trip to get your work - anything for you sweetie.

Now my kids know I'm always there - and they probably haven't learned the true consequences of screwing up.

I'm trying, but I always want to fix things for them. I think it's a cyclical thing. I had to pay for college myself, my parents never gave me much spending money - and I want it easier for my kids. The happy medium I have not yet found.

What you are doing is hard. But, she is an individual (some would say adult) and she has to figure it out for herself.

The part about no childhood is just trying to get your goat! Most kids I know are in sports, scouts, music etc.... Did she have girl scouts daily? I think not. She's just pressing your buttons.

Best of luck. We are here for you.

LL

[Irishlass]

I've been following this thread from the beginning. I've looked for words to comfort you. I've tried to put myself in your place, but that just isn't possible. I know you are hurting and I wish we could all be there with you for a huge group hug.

You have laid a solid foundation for your daughter to build her life on. She is testing her wings right now. She has to learn from her mistakes, and you just have to back off and let her make those mistakes. It is SO difficult to be a mom.
A little tough love may be just what she needs.

You both will be in my prayers. God bless you.

[frawniemae]

Does anyone text message? Did you know you can read the sender's attitude in those short messages? It's amazing. I can just see her rolling her eyes and clenching her teeth at me. Oh, well...she'll eventually get over it.

I kind of find it amusing. Maybe I'm twisted or vengeful or something, but I know she knows she's screwed up. I know that in the midst of all this she is slowly realizing that maybe, just maybe I have been right about a few things. Maybe I just like seeing that lightbulb come on over her head when she learns something.

Maybe I'm just wishful thinking...

[Slitter]

:hug2: to you, Frawnie. It's probably mostly just her age. I absolutely despised my parents at that age. I had no reason whatsoever to do so and, if put on the spot, would probably invent something about as stupid and baseless. I look back at myself at that age and I am definitely not proud of what I see.

One sure reason she should stay in school is that, amazingly, when I finished college it sure seemed to me that it was my parents that got smarter while I was in school. LOL, no doubt that was also a function of age. The good news is that I get along great with my parents now and did since graduating. Don't give up hope. It's very likely she will come around as I did and be able to appreciate how fortunate she is to have you as parents.

[frawniemae]

I'm not giving up hope. I know I did a good job of raising my kids (I am not saying I didn't make mistakes...I made plenty!). I remember all too well what it's like being that age. She just doesn't think I have a clue what it's like. And there again I know about feeling that same thing. Lord knows me and mama did not get along then. I did a lot of things that I know broke my parents' hearts but they loved me through it somehow.

That's what parents do.

I'm ready for this phase to be through with. But we have a few more bumps in the road to roll over yet.

[frawniemae]

Well, that reality check Sarah's been needing finally came in the mail, so to speak. We had a sit down and I had her list her bills and such., including the money she would need to set aside every month to cover the scholarship she gave up.

She was not happy.

But she knows that it's the way it's going to be.

I asked her again if she was sure about going back to college. She said she'd have to in order to be able to get a decent paying job doing what she wants to do, teaching little kids. Then she gets teary eyed and saying how worthless she is, that she has always felt that way. And I'm sitting there "What do I say?" that will make her see differently. This is a feeling that she is going to have to fight to get past. Low self esteem is the devil sitting on your shoulders whispering in your ear that you are not good enough. That's a demon she'll have to deal with.

She takes anti depressants but is not going to see her counselor. She admitted that she really doesn't need the pills but I don't want her to suffer from depression, either. I guess as soon as finals are over I'll go with her to a counselor. We've been this route before and we were told that low self esteem was the main issue to deal with. Okay, so how exactly are we supppose to do that? I try to tell her all the time about how special she is, that she is someone that others look up to, that she is loved dearly, that she changed my life for the better, etc.

It all seems to fall on deaf ears.

I don't know what else to do except pray. I've been doing that a lot lately.

thanks for listening.

[Gabby]

Low self-esteem is absolutely the devil on your shoulder and while it's probably true that the way a child is treated may be the cause of SOME self-esteem issues it is absolutely not the only cause. Poor parenting can make a child w/low self esteem have lower self-esteem, but no matter how good a mom you are, you can't raise self-esteem in a child who's suffering from a poor self-image.

Charlie's disorder comes with a heaping pile of low self-esteem. This is very hard for me to accept because one of my strengths as a teacher is supporting/encouraging good self-esteem in my students. How could I possibly have failed so miserably with my child? In Charlie's case, 90% of it is genetic. He's wired wrong so to speak. That's probably true of Sarah, too. Charlie is very popular, very smart, and the light of my life -- but he thinks he's stupid and worthless. That's why it's called SELF-esteem. It doesn't matter what I think or what I've done as a mother -- I can't make it better.

:hug2:

I'm so sorry that you have to go through this.

[Slitter]

I'm sure all this happening has been another blow to her confidence too. What she needs is a good, long string of successes and only she can achieve that. I don't know what you can do that you haven't been doing. All I know of that you can really do is keep on being the angel on the other shoulder to try and counterbalance that devil. Perhaps the counselor will have some more useful suggestions.

You have been going through a really tough stretch, my friend. We'll certainly always be here to listen. I just wish we could do something more.

[frawniemae]

Just by being here to be a sounding board is a much appreciated thing! The devil has sure been having a heyday with all of us in the frawnie household. But in a way that's a good thing because that means we're making him nervous and that we must be doing something right.

If the devil doesn't pick on you at times, then he's got you where he wants you! So, like I said, all this is really a good thing. It'll make us all stronger in some way or another!

[Fuel]

It sounds like you discovered the root of the problem, now the challange is finding a path going forward. Hang in there, the path is poorly marked and full of gopher holes. :)

[Slitter]

How are things going, Frawnie? It's been over a month now.

How's Sarah doing? And how are you doing coping with everything? Are finals over yet? Seems like they should be by now.

I haven't forgotten about you guys.